yay final hamlet fishbowl.
i can too dance ms. smith. Just so you know.
How has Hamlet progressed as a hero either through the four stages or just as a tragic hero?
Class - I am going to start with a very open question. Do you feel as though Hamlet meets the qualities of a hero?
emily- i don't think that hamlet has progresses as a hero, by the oed definition. But he is a tragic hero i think, he's gone through the four stages of a tragic hero so i think he qualifies.
Emily - as i just asked... I am tryin to figure out if Hamlet even meets the qualitis of a hero. It is hard to tell whether or not he even is a hero.
Steven- Hamlet makes the qualifications but only barely. He overcomes his indecisiveness and also learns to accept death in the end and allow it to come when it would. He didn't try to control his death, which is a common theme among many of the heroes.
Weems- ur dancing was just wrong....lol
KC - nice going.
Emily-I when he was contemplating suicide wasn't that him trying to control his death?
emily - So you think that he just accepted his death and prepared for it?
Class - How could Hamelt's love for Ophelia be compared with the steps of being a tragic hero (Innocence, Loss of innocence, chaos, resolution)?
Matt W. - I agree. I personally don't think that Hamlet is a true hero from what we have learned. He doesn't fit, like you said, what we have defined as a hero. But I do think that he fits the stages of a tragic hero. He was committed to his cause, and died for it. But in the end, I don't think I would clasify Hamlet as a hero.
Weems................youre dancing was cute.
Matt and KC-I wish we could all just be nice and cary on a serious conversation about Hamlet. OR pirates.
Steven- I do not think that Hamlet should be considered a HERO. To me it never seemed like he was truly working for the benfit of others. Instead of trying to murder Cladius for the better of Denmark, he was looking for his own revenge. I think like most characters in the book, Hamlet's intentions were selfish. That is not a hero worthy quality.
sam- i think that hamlets love for ophelia can be kinda compared to the steps of a tragic hero. He experiences very little problems with their relationship before the play began (we assume) but he eventually lost that relationship and it ended tragically with the death of Ophelia and Hamlet realising just what he lost.
Emily/steven- I agree with weems, he follows the four stages of a tragic hero just as oedipus did. The most important point is that he faces death. If you go by the O.E.D. definition I don't believe he qualifies as a hero though. He actually could be considered a tragic hero.
I disagree with Kyle about Hamlet's flaw being his inaction, or atleast that it is not the only tragic flaw. His rashness and blindness were major flaws that led him to do and say things that caused Ophelia's madness and Polonius's death. He overcame the indecisiveness, but it can still be a tragic flaw anyways?
Sam- I think that their relationship follows the first three steps but where do we see the resolution? I don't think that there is a resolution because she ends up dead.
sam- thanks, that makes me feel better:)
steven-I think hamlet fits the four stages of a tragic hero but not a hero.!!!
Class- does anyone see Hamlet as a good guy in the end?
Sam- Hamlets love for Ophelia follows some of the basic steps of a hero. He at first, just has a nice relationship with her. Soon the conflict with Polonius gets in his way and he loses the innocence he once had. Then it is just chaos as he starts to act crazy. Then the resolution is her realizes she is gone and he could have probably have stopped it.
Steven- I do not think that Hamlet should be considered a hero. He did what e had to do for HIMSELF. Eventhough it could be argued that he was doing it for the ghost it was still motivated for his own agenda. I think that he was selfish and did carry out the qualities that most heroes poscess.
Leigh/Steven: At the end, Hamlet walked into the fencing match aware that something was wrong and did not try to set up his own plan to kill the other before he himself got killed. He did contemplate suicide, but then stopped doing that and stopped caring about it so I think he no longer tried to control it.
Class - As Jake mentioned Oedipus, what so you think the main difference between them is? Personnaly it is the fact that Oedipus cannot see the truth, while Hamlet's sees too much of it.
Leigh- I think Hamlet tries to redeem himself for his actions throughtout the play, but I don't see him as a hero in the end.
emily- i disagree. Hamlet intentionally lead Ophelia away from him so that she wouldn't get hurt by his actions or be considered a conspirator with him if he did kill claudius. When polonius started to spy on him, he had to convince polonius that he was insane so that he wouldn't be suspicious of hamlet actions cause he's crazy and doesn't know what he's doing. The death of both Ophelia and Polonius was unseen in his eyes and he didn't want either of them to die.
Answer to my own question - In the beginning you see how the love between them was innocent and new and they were just beginning their journey of a relationship. What initiated the loss of innocence was Polonius telling Ophelia that she could no longer be involved with Hamlet, which in turn created the chaos between their love for eachother. Ophelia seemed to be getting caught up between her dad and Hamlet and we see Hamlet lose his father along with Ophelia. In the end, Ophelia death is what brought resolution between them, even though Ophelia was dead. Her death brought Hamlet down to the "same level" as he described and realized that he did indeed truly love her.
Leigh- I don't see him as a good guy. I mean her murdered 3 people and caused the deaths of a few more. He got way to caught up in the revenge mindset and it made him crazy. He did not need to do any of this he just picked to do it. He is not a good guy.
What do you think... sorry!
Steven: what do you mean when you say Hamlet saw too much of the truth?
i dont really see Hamlet as a Good guy or a Bad guy. i just seem him as just another charecter in the play, eventhough he is the main charecter. besides claudius' incestous acts, how are hamlet and claudius different? they both wanted to kill people for there own selfish reasons. None of them were thinking about the surrounding charecters and how it would affect them.
Leigh- In the end I do think that Hamlet could possibly be seen as a good guy. Although Hamlet had made many rash and selfish decisions earlier in the story, at the end he chooses to put Fortinbras in control of Denmark. Despite their bad past he knows that Fortinbras will be the right leader for his counrty. He makes the right decision
Steven~I think the major difference is their motivation. Hamlet gets his motivation for his actions from the ghost and that is mostly what starts his madness. Oedipus on the other hand doesn't know that he is doing bad. He gets so cocky about solving the riddle that he thinks he is the best person to lead Thebes, but in reality he was the murderer from the start.So basically through that rambling- Hamlet was motivated by he ghost and Oedipus was motivated by his elitist ego.
leigh- i think that the term "good guy" is too general to describe hamlet. Yes he is noble in the fact that he gives fortinbras the throne, but he still killed Polonius and Laertes, and indirectly lead to the death of Gertrude and Ophelia. No matter the reasons for those deaths, they were still caused by hamlet. I don't think that hamlet could be described as a good or bad guy, he's too much in the middle.
Matt: I did not mean that Hamlet wanted either of them to die, and that is why it was a flaw. What his actions were led to their deaths (not on purpose) and his actions were very rash (like killing Polonius right away) and blind because when he started to use Ophelia, he didn't see what these things could do to her.
allie- I agree completely. Hamlet, like a hero, was committed to his cause. BUT, his cause was completely for his own benefit. Hamlet, although may have bettered Denmark, did not have any have any intentions whatsoever for anyone else. His plan to kill Claudius was geniunily out of selfishness and revenge. Actions like these do not fit the qualities of a hero
Leigh - I do not see Hamlet as a good guy at all, but more as a selfish nobody who was trying to get the attention of everyone around him, no matter the cost!
Steven- I agree with you that your right with him seeing too much of the truth, this also makes him a tragic hero because he see's the truth to be onesided, he only looks at it the way he wants to see it, and not the other side of it. I believe thats one major flaw Hamlet has.
I do think that hamlet did lead Ophelia away because he didnt want her to get hurt. And thats why in the end he told laertes how much he loved Ohelia and he'll do anything for her. All he wanted was for her to not die but she did.
thanks ryan f !
Emily - I meant that Hamlet knowns all the secrets of the kingdom and his parents. And as you said, he even knows when he is going to die.
leigh- in response to your comment a while back... i dont think hamlet is good or bad. In this play i don't think there are any lines of good or bad. Everyone is in the middle ground. Every character has done something wrong and something right. I really dont feel there is an deffination as to what is right or wrong.
To the inner circle: Brooks- I disagree. I don't feel that Polonius truly loved Ophelia. To me, it seems that Ophelia was used as a tool to help Polonius gain status with the royalty of Denmark. I didn't see any examples of love towards Ophelia.
Well then Steven, I completely agree about the differences between Oedipus and Hamlet. Who do you think dealt with their situation better? Which one seems like the better hero to you?
Curtis-I don't think that Claudius and Hamlet are similar at all. You said that they both killed people out of selfishness but Hamlet wasn't killing for himself, it was to let his father be cleansed of his sins and allow him to go to heaven.
Weems- right back at ya
Emily- I think that hamlet meets the qualifications of a hero because he is going through a chaotic time and all his actions are because he wants to revenge his fathers death which could be heroic and also at he end when he tells Horatio not to drink the poison and kill himself is a heroic quality
Weems- you know all about sexual tension don't you...
I know brooks cant hear this but i agree with him when he said that polonius really did love Ophelia because when we watched one of the scene when polonius and claudius was spying on hamlet and ophelia and in the end of that polonius was holding ophelia and it seemed like he was worried about her dealing with hamlet. I kinda saw love and caring between the two of them.
Leigh- Idk im kinda torn. I think he is partially a good guy because of his good intentions In the beginning to avenge his fathers death but the way he went about getting revenge sort of makes him NOT a good person. Im not sure though i can't decide
ryan- I agree with what you said. Polonius did not really care about Ophelia by loving her. He just didn't want her to be with Hamlet because Polonius did not want that to effect his status. He cared about maintaining himself and the king throughout the play. He did not love her as a daughter.
leigh- are you sure? Hamlet was mad at claudius even before he met his fathers ghost. Killing claudius was just as much a favor to his father as it was a way for him to have an excuse to kill claudius because he saw claudius as stealing his mother.
Class- do you think that many of Hamlet's "bad" actions could have been avoided if he wasn't acting so much in defense?
ryan f- i disagree with what you said about hamlets actions being for himself. I dont think he is doing this for himself at all. Sure he is only thinking about himself in situations with ophelia and such, but i think all of his actions were driven by his father. Old hamlet is controling young hamlet through thinks like guilt and loyalty.
Class- what is your interpertation of family? does Hamlet's family fit your definition?
Shaina that is a good point. It seems like Hamlet didn't really become a true hero until the end when he started to care about everyone else like Horatio and his kingdom. I feel like this is because he has returned to the real world and allowed all of his other thoughts to flow back in and remembers everythings else that is important to him.
the message of hamlet...famililes should be families and you shouldn't let your sexual, political, or personal desires get in the way of your family being functional and whole.
Sorry weems I had too...
Class - How does sexual desire, between each character, come into contact with this story?Personally, I think sexual desire is what started the chaos in this story. Claudius wanted his brother's wife and killed his brother to get her and then had an incestuous relationship with her. This, in turn, caused Hamlet to be disgusted and he hated Claudius because of it. For Hamlet, we see that even though Ophelia is of royal blood, Hamlet still hooks up with her and fulfills his sexual desires through their relationship. Since they weren't able to stay together, this caused Hamlet to become heartbroken, in turn causing more chaos. I think sexual tension plays a huge role throughout this whole story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Class/Matt- other thatn killing his father, why do you think he was mad at Claudius then? Is there an Oedipus complex that Hamlet was jealous of Claudius' relationship with his mother? If so, doesn't it seem ironic that he mocks their incestuous relationship?
One of the messages in the play seems like a warning against getting to involved in everyone else's lives.
Leigh- I do think all the murders in the story could have been avoided if he wasn't so set on killing Cladius. He never took any time to think about what he was doing and all the harm it would cause to the other people in his life. There can be others ways to go about it but he did not choose to do that. He could have prevented all the death.
sam- wow, you're passionate about sexual tension. And i agree, it plays a big role in the overall flow of the whole play.
so this is my first time fishbowl blogging, and it's pretty challenging keeping up with the conversation. so I'm going back to steven's question of if hamlet fits the hero definition.Stage one, innocence, says that they think they are the center of the universe. Hamlet is feeling really selfish as we've already discussed throughout the whole play, only thinking of himself and his own feelings. Stage 2, initiation says that the hero confronts death and realizes that others can die. This is quite obvious with the death of his father, and then the death of Polonius. So he realizes that he can kill as well. Also in stage 2 is awareness of evil, and that evil is not always punished. Which comes in with Claudius, who is not punished for his evil actions. The last point in state 2 is the initimate awakening, where intimacy is given, but the taken away. Gertrude is no longer Hamlet's loving mother figure, and she is no longer there for him. Also, Hamlet's life long friends stab him in the back as well. Stage 3 of the tragic hero is chaos, and Hamlet's whole life after the point of his father's death is chaos, where he goes mad, kills Polonius, and turns away from Ophelia, the woman that he loved. He realizes that the future holds more suffering. Stage 4, the resolution, is where the heroes are made. Hamlet moves on from everything, all of his losses, and realizes that he has only one thing left to do, and that's to kill Claudius. Even in the last moments of his life he is realizing that he really loved Ophelia. He then kills Claudius, and moves on to death, the next stage in his life. So I think Hamlet very much fits the stages of a hero.
matt w-- i agree that hamlet had anger towards claudius because of the simple fact that he married his mother, but at the same time i think that the ghost is the reason why hamlet wants to kill claudius. I dont think the idea ever crossed his mind until he met the ghost. this is his drive, the ghost does the thinking, hamlet is not a brutal revenge seeking man on his own.
If you guys can't be adult about being on the blog, I will shut it down. I expect you to all go above my expectations on here not sink to the level of middle school students. Remember that this is a public document that all will be able to see for years to come. Keep that in mind when you are teasing one another. There is a time and place for that and during discussion that is not the time.
Shaina- I don't think any character in this book would fit into any normal definition of family. Your family is supposed to consist of people you can trust or turn to, not people who stab you in the back and plot against you. Hamlet is the worst example of family I have seen.
Sorry, i meant that Ophelia ISN'T of royal blood.
to jake the message was probably that whether its a family,friends,people and your lover dont trust anyone. when you live your life you live alone no ones there to help you but yourself.
Shaina- No. hamlet def. does not fit my definition of family. Even though all familys have their problems; not many families are corrupt enough to have a desire to kill eachother and actually go threw with it.
Leigh nice question. I agree with what you said about the irony of him being mad about their relationship when his underlying motivation was an attraction to his mother. He might have been mad because Claudius took his mother away, which meant one less supporter in his life when he already had only a few, but your idea is the better one.
liegh-i think that hamlet would have been mad at Claudius for sleeping with is mom and for the incest. i think that he would also have to be mad at gertrude. i could not see hamlet and cladius getting along if the muder didnt happen.
leigh- i think that hamlet was just very overprotective of his mohter. He didn't have time to get a feel for claudius or for him to get to know him. He might have also wanted to approve of him before she married him. Now, he feels like he was shoved out of the family by a man that he knows little about and not only that but it's his fathers brother. I wouldn't like it either if my mom married my uncle. ew
Shaina- My interpertation of family is a close knitted bond, also the bonds between mother and son tend to be strong. I don't see any of this in the play because the family ends up killing each other and the bond between Hamlet and gertrude isn't very strong or even there at all.
Sam E : I agree that Hamlet did a lot of what he did out of revenge for his father, and that he may have been controling Hamlets actions. I had never thought of it that way before. But the point I was trying to make, was that Hamlets actions were all in revenge or selfishness. Everything that he was doing was not meant to benefit anyone other than his dead father. From what I know to be a hero, a true hero's actions would be for someone else. But know that I think about it, I'm not sure where I stand. Hamlet did die to protect and preserve the reputation of his father, but it was all out of selfish ambition. What do you think about Hamlet; do you think he is a hero?
I think the message of Hamlet is moslty about trust and different relationship. The play shows the relationship between mother and son and how the ideal relationship doesn't always happen also the relationship between father and son and how hamlet respects his father and his advice that he will do anything in his honor and also the weird relationship between cladius and the queen...the play wants to show all the different aspects of good and bad relationships
leigh-i think that it could have been avoided but then if it was avoided then the story woudnt be as interesting as it is made.
emily l- that is a good point. if everyone would have kept to there own business, even if it is family, there would be far less problems. If polonious would have had his own mind and was not such a follower ophelia would not have turned out the way she did, causing no tention between learates and hamlet and polonious. These relationships would have changed the story drastically.
in the play hamlet there are no good examples of a family. nobody trust each other or are loyal. sure the love for family is there but thats it
Shaina- I think family refers to the trust that you have between eachother. Even if you cannot allow for others to hear things you should always be able to tell them to your family and they should always support them. That sense of family doesn't seem to exist in Hamlet at all. Hamlet knows that he can't trust his mother or uncle. Ophelia thinks that she can trust her father but when she tells him about how she loves Hamlet he tries to ruin it.
Class- Who do you think are the most important FOIL characters in the story?
Emily - I know that this might sound wierd but I think that Oedipus handled it better. He only commited self mutilation, he didn't kill himself. He felt ashamed. Hamlet on the other hand, went crazy and lost the girl he loved, his friends, his mother, and even his own life. Hamlet was just selfish and wanted attention. He sounds like my 7 year old niece.
emilyl, I definately agree with your point of view on the play. It's getting into other people's business that get's Polonius killed, and when Claudius tries to figure out Hamlet's every next move, he ends up just getting lost in what his motives are. He sends him off to England, and that doesn't work, and Hamlet eventually comes back to kill him. I think that's a really good theme to the play, but obviously not the only one.
charlie- i think that most important foils in the story are hamlet and fortinbras. They have very similar home lives yet both take very different paths with the rest of their lives. Hamlet can't even avenge his own fathers death becuase he's too afraid and fortinbras is invading completely useless stakes of land just cause he wants them. His action is the opposite of hamlets inaction. He provides a kind of vision of hamlet if he had been more bold in his actions instead of being so cautious.
Haha Steven. That's not weird at all I agree that Oedipus handled it much better. Oedipus was much more mature than Hamlet and much less seflish. These seem like important characteristics of a hero. Do you think Claudius had either of these? What else do you think are important qualities a good leader should have?
Class - How does religion play a big role in this story?I think religion is pretty skewed if you are looking at it in a Christian point of view. I thought it was always interesting how Hamlet felt wrong in killing Claudius while he was praying and believed that he himself would go to hell for killing Claudius during prayer. In a Christian sense, what should have been bothering him was the fact that he wanted to kill him because that is sinful, not killing someone during prayer.
Charlie- I think the most prominent foil in the story is Claudius. He seems to be the one constantly starting trouble. He put both Hamlet and Gertrude in terrible positions and almost turned them against eachother. He tore apart what little family was left in the book.
daniel- i dont think the love of the family is there though and if it was, it was probably fake. You cant have love but not trust it just doesnt work like that. But you can have trust combined with love which i didnt see at all in this book.
Milendan- I agree with you in that you can't trust anyone because you can only help yourself, but if this is true how can you live life if you don't trust anyone... Live alone? You can also recieve the greatest gifts in life by your friends, family, and lover. I think you have to kind of look at it in both ways, how would the world look if no one trusted one another?
Class - What kind of religion was best displayed throughout this story (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc...)?
i agree that polonious curiosity got him killed, being in somebody elses business puts you into danger. if polonious had the trust of his daughter and hamlet he would have been alive throughout the entire play.
ryan f- i think hamlet fits to what you think a hero is. he is doing all of this for someone else, his dead father. I dont think he is a real hero though. i think the real hero needs to get the big picture and that is where hamlet is lacking. He is only thinking of one person who is dead, not the good of EVERYONE else. this is an issure when a lot of people are involved. if hamlet had thoguht of what else was happening and the results of his actions i think he would have acted differently. because of this he is not looking out for other people, he is only hurting them.
I agree with Leigh and Dan. There doesn't seem to be a true sense of family in Hamlet. Hamlet, like Leigh said, can't trust anyone in the play. I think that trust is a bigger issue than lack of family. The inability for characters to trust other characters lead to their downfall. It became "every man for themselves," and as...unfortunate (i guess) as this may sound, they all started to kill each other. No one had allies, therefore, everyone was on their own. Trust was clearly absent from the characters lives
Leigh- Yes I think that Hamlets actions could have been avoided. He obvioulsy wanted to kill claudius the whole play but where it shows me the most where his actions could have been prevented was when Hamlet decided NOT to kill Claudius in the confession room. But the more the play moved forward it became obvious to me that there was no stopping him after everyone was really out to get Hamlet.
Jake- I don't think that if you don't trust anyone you live alone. There are different degrees of trust and friend-friend isn't as high as family-family or lover-lover. You can trust your friends as friends and still live alone in your house, but I don't think you would be as alone as Hamlet seemed to be, apart from having Horatio.
sam- i think it was catholicism. Cause they don't confess in christianity (i'd know cause i am one) and they don't in buddism, hinduism or any other religion that i know of. Except maybe islam but i doubt that they are islamic.
Sam- I think that is part of the irony. Hamlet should have felt bad for even thinking of killing his uncle, you know?Religion also comes in with Ophelia's death. No one could tell whether or not it was a suicide but people still tried to judge her for it. It seems skewed that the humans are doing the judgment, when that should really be left to God.
jake- good point..i didnt think of it that way but thats true. and the idea that came up in my head just now is that hamlet did trust someone and that was horatio. so your right.
sam- weems said they are most likely Catholic. It is ironic that they pose as devout Catholic yet the whole story is about the unbelievable sin they all commit. (ie murder, suicide, incest). Their acts dont portray any type of religion especailly Catholicism
jake t- i agree that you cant go through life with out trusting anyone. if everyone in this play had been like hamlet all of these people plus some would have died much earlier in the play. learates and polonious and claudius are very trusting with eachother. the queen is very trusting up until the very end. Ophelia is trusting toward her father and hamlet to some extent. hamlet is the only one who doesnt trust anyone. well he does trust heratio, but that does not bring him much power because he doesnt act upon it. if you dont trust anyone things would have been even more crazy.
leigh- i agree. The judgment was god's, but i understand that they had to know whether or not it was suicide because the priests weren't sapossed to give the same burial rights to those that committed suicide at to those that didn't. Cause, when people died, they weren't sure where their souls went (aka heaven or hell) so they gave them blessings and such in the hope that they would be sent to heaven. If they committed suicide they automatically were damned to hell so it didn't matter if they got blessings. It wasn't so much as them judging her as it was them determining whether or not she should recieve the blessings.
Sam e: You make a good point. I think I now have a better understanding of my stance on Hamlet being a true hero. I suppose that if hamlet was looking out for EVERYONE else, like i said, there would be no way for him to get anything completed. And i do agree that he hasn't grasped the big picture. I guess that is what I was trying to say. Hamlet has tunnel vision, and to me, like you said, a hero is able to get the big picture.
samt- I think that it's really a catholic religion that plays a big role in the play. When the ghost returns, he is supposedly in purgatory repaying his unconfessed sins. Also, Hamlet doesn't kill Claudius when he is confessing his sins to God because he knows that Claudius will be sent to Heaven if he kills him as he's cleansing his sins. Another thing is that Hamlet contemplates as to why people even live on Earth suffering, when there is something better after death, which is obviously in Hamlet's eyes, a Heaven.
Emily - the claudius that all of us only ever saw was through Hamlet's eyes... I really don't think that I can answer that, But i do think that we can say that because Hamlet went crazy and was almost dishonoring the throne, then Claudius could have done everything for the kindom making him a great learder!
Class- Do we see an example of all the 7 deadly sins in the play? (lust, glutony, sloth, envy, greed, wrath, and pride) Could they be a catalyst for all of thier deaths?
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