Sunday, December 2, 2007

Hamlet Fishbowl Act 4

159 comments:

mattw said...

This blog is going to be fantastorgasmical!

iains said...

I agree

emilyl said...

class- do you think Ophelia commit suicide or was so crazy she didn't realize she was drowning?

mattw said...

Is Gertrude more interested in power, or in perserving her family line? Because if she gives up hamlet, her family line is done, but she will also gain more power...

StevenD said...

class - i am going to start this off by asking whether or not you think that Ophelia killed herself.... or was it an accident?

Kyle B. said...

Class-Do you think that this struggle between Hamlet and Claudius remains to be a fight between good and evil?

Soo.K said...

Emily - I think that Ophelia slightly knew that she was drowning, but mostly it was because of her insanity.

mattw said...

Emily-neither. I think that Ophelia was crazy, but she fell in the water and had no way to save herself. She didn't commit suicide, but she was crazy, but she didn't want to die.

iains said...

Emily L- I think that she did commit suicide, but she did so because she was ging insane from her suffering, and she thought that the only way out was suicide.

emilyl said...

matt- I think it is only the men who really care about family line, because back then, the women don't inherit anything and don't pass their family name on so she will probably choose Claudius

michaelm said...

Emily- I think that Ophelia commit suicide because it makes more sense than a clumsy drowning. Ophelia clearly went nuts, so I think she wanted to end her life. There was also a lot of foreshadowing of suicide, so because this is Shakespeare, I believe it is suicide.

StevenD said...

thanks for stealing my question emily, but I think that Ophelia did kill herself and that she did it because she has been used throughout the entire play and that she has no reason to live. She has driven Hamlet away and she has just gone crazy...

Leigh J said...

Class-why don't you think Gertrude fights to keep her son with her instead of letting Claudius send him away?

Soo.K said...

Matt - I don't think Gertrude wants power at all or will gain any for turning in Hamlet. She is brainwashed by Claudius, so she believes that turning in Hamlet is the right thing to do. I don't think she really thinks about how Old Hamlet's family line could end with Hamlet.

rebeccar said...

Gertrude did not side with her son because he is the “crazy” one and she has a lot of pressure on her as queen and wife of Claudius to remain calm and stable. It would make her look bad if she stayed loyal to her son, despite her love for him. I agree that Claudius has brain washed her and that she is definitely “whipped”.

ryan f said...

emilyl- I think that Ophelia did commit suicide. It seems like Ophelia was crazy, and that she could have gotten to the point where she didn't realize she was drowning, but to me, it seemed like suicide was the only way to prevent herself from becoming that insane

iains said...

Kyle B- I believe that good versus evil is a very strong theme in this play, and that there are many representations of this struggle, including the one between Claudius and Hamlet.

DanielC said...

Emily- i think that ophelia committed suicide because she wass crazy and she could not overcome all of her confusion. also, she could not think of someother way ouit of her suffering so she just killed herself. so to answer you question i think it was both.

mattw said...

well kyle, i think that it remains a struggle between good and evil. But the lines are not as well defined as they once were. Claudius is still evil yes, but Hamlet killing polonius in cold blood makes him evil as well. So it's hard to tell, if one of them dies, which side is victorious. If claudius dies, then an evil person dies but an evil person lives, and vice versa as well.

courtneyw said...

Emily- I think in some sort of way it was both her insanity and a sucide attempted and finished. At first it was probably just her insanity but I think after she feel in it was suicide. Even if she was insane, she ould of got out. She just took the chance after falling in.

Leigh J said...

Steven and Emily- I think that Ophelia was so mad that she didn't realize she was drowning. Although she does have a sad life right now she is crazy. We saw her in a straight jacket in one of the movies and by her face we could tell she was honestly insane. I think that when she was still singing as she bobs up and down in the water she is proving to us through her calmness that she doesn't know she is dying.

iains said...

Leigh - She doesn't stand up to the King because she is a woman, and in the mind of Shakespeare, women are weak and inferior and unable to fight for their beliefs.

StevenD said...

kyle - I really don't have a true answer to your question. I don't think that this is a battle between good and evil, but more a struggle of vengence and internal conflict.

ryanb said...

Kyle- I do not think that Shakespear set up Hamlet to be a good versus evil story at all. The way that the characters' sense of right and wrong are all mixed up. For example, Claudius, who killed Hamlets father, truly felt bad for what he had done and confessed in the church. Hamlet on the other hand is trying to revenge his father no matter what the cost. He has already killed Ophelia and Polonius.

michaelm said...

Kyle- I think the fight between Hamlet and Claudius is something other than good and evil. Hamlet is trying to get revenge for his father's deahth, and Claudius is trying to stop Hamlet from leaking the truth.

Soo.K said...

Leigh - Gertrude probably thinks that Hamlet is crazy and needs to get away from Denmark. I don't think she believes her son either, of how Claudius could have killed Old Hamlet. Now no one believes that Hamlet is sane. Also, Gertrude follows everything that Claudius does, so she has no objection when he is sent.

emilyl said...

ian and steven- I disagree because Ophelia went insane from love, but her family values would have prevented her from commiting suicide. It seemed more like she was apathetic when she died, because at that point, she was supposed to not love Hamlet anyways, because of her father's orders.
class- what really drove Ophelia mad? Hamlet, her fathers death, the fact that Hamlet killed her father...?

DanielC said...

matt- i dont think that gertrude wants power at all. she was already queen when king hamlet was in power, and there was no way that she coul;d gain even more power if she wanted king hamlet dead. i just think that she was brainwashed and cant make her on decision for herself and thats why she is still with him

jaket said...

Leigh I think Gertrude doesn't fight Cladius to keep Hamlet is because she wants to stay Queen and she knows what Hamlet is planning to do to Cladius.

mattw said...

leigh- i think that gertrude doesn't want to be separated from the last living member of her direct family. She wants to please claudius, but i think she wants to be around her family more than she wants to please claudius right now.

StevenD said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Soo.K said...

Kyle - A defined line between good and evil does not really exist in this play. Although Hamlet seems to be good, his actions show otherwise. Hamlet is trying to get revenge, but by killing Polonius and rejecting Ophelia, sympathy for Hamlet seems to be lost. There is no one truly "good" around Hamlet or in Denmark for that matter.

mattw said...

emily- i think that a combination of all those things that you listed drove her insane. Se probably wouldn't have gone insane if any of those one things didn't happen, so it's hard to put the blame on one particular event.

Kyle B. said...

Well, Matt, I would have to agree with you. As the story progresses, Hamlet has done deeds that he will have to pay for and Claudius has obviously done things that all would find offense with. The are growing more alike than either one would like and the final showdown may reveal them as being the same. This battle is becoming one that involves who they each have on their side. They are both trying to gather allegiances and they both continue to strive for the best army.

iains said...

Emily L - I think what drove Ophelia insane was the conflict between what people told her to do and what she wanted to do. She really wanted to love Hamlet, but her father would not let her. This struggle inside her between her feelings and her respect for her father eventually drove her mad.

courtneyw said...

EmilyL- I think everything caused her to go mad. I don't think it was just one thing. I think the sequence of events led to the mad-ness. Everyone is storng but once there is alot of thins going woring we tend to not be able to handle it.

rebeccar said...

Matt ( RE kyle) – I completely agree. Hamlet has now stooped down to Claudius’s level by committing a murder. But does that really make him evil?

This brings up the question…
Class – Does the end justify the means? Is Hamlet’s accidental murder justified because his intentions in the end are “good”?

Leigh J said...

Iain and Soo-I agree that Shakespeare does make women seem week and that Gertrude does want to remain on Claudius' side, but didn't we see in the movies and we have discussed that Gertrude NEEDS Hamlet. Maybe now she does not need Hamlet but instead needs Claudius. It is sad that Shakespeare portrays women as such dependent characters.

Soo.K said...

Emily - I think that rejection and her father's murder drove her crazy. Ophelia always needed someone to rely on or someone to control her. Since she does not have that male figure in her life anymore, she doesn't know what to do.

emilyl said...

Leigh- Gertrude doesn't fight to keep Hamlet because she is afraid of him, and he made her feel so guilty that instead of listening to what he said, she wants to get rid of the source of discomfort.

DanielC said...

Kyle- i agree with ryanb, hamlet was not written to be a good vs evil story. hamlet wants revenge on his fathers murderer and there are more than one pair of sons and murderers are in this story. i dont think that shakespeare wanted to make it a good vs evil story

jaket said...

Daniel C- I disagree with you about Gertrude not wanting power. If se didn't want power she would have stood up for Hamlet, instead she just sits back and watches the all this play out.

michaelm said...

Inner circle- I think that Hamlet will realize what he is doing is wrong and see that revenge is not the way to go. I think Hamlet will try to seek revenge and let everyone know the truth about Claudius. Killing Claudius won't help anything, I think Hamllet should humiliate Claudius infront of everybody.

courtneyw said...

RebeccaR- I don't think his accidental murder is justified... because killing people is never justified whatever the means are.

iains said...

Rebecca R- His murder is not justified. It simply points out how his ideas of revenge have consumed him, how he sees opportunities to murder Claudius everwhere.

mattw said...

rebecca- i think the end justifies the means. Although hamlet will have to pay for his crimes, he is doing his best to avenge his father and expose the sins that claudius has committed. Whether or not hamlets tactics are justified is really a matter of personal opinion. There's no real concrete answer.

StevenD said...

Leigh - I think that Gertrude knows that if Hamlet stays he will kill Claudius or die trying, so she might be trying to protect Hamlet. On the other hand though, Gertrude has to know that by sending him away, Claudius will most likely have him killed, so it is hard and I think that she is just giving up and being the "weak and frail" women that Shakespear portrays her as.

Leigh J said...

Soo- what do you think that her dependance on male characters shows about women in that time period. Do you think it was her fault that she depended on the men in her life?

Kyle B. said...

Class-At the end of Act 4, Hamlet has another one of his soliloques in which he recognizes his own fault. He realizes as he watches the army march by that he is stricken by inaction. Do you think that Hamlet will eventually overcome this flaw that has held him back from getting what he desires and what he deserves?

ryanb said...

Rebecca- The end does not justify the means and Hamlet is no exception. Hamlet cannot justify the suffering of so many people to bring down Claudius. Doing wrong to promote what is right is hypocritical in itself.

emilyl said...

I think that the story was meant to be a tragedy from the fact that it can't be a good vs. evil story, like what Kyle said. Hamlet can't really win at this point, because he will be left with nothing, and will be a murderer, so it can't realy be that type of story. Those usually have happier endings.

Soo.K said...

Rebecca - I don't think Hamlet's murder is justified at all. He only killed Polonius because he thought it was Claudius. He has committed a murder, and I agree that it does bring Hamlet down to Claudius's level. I do not think that Hamlet's intentions are good anymore. It seems like Hamlet has actually gone mad and now he cannot see nothing but revenge.

DanielC said...

michaelm is disagree that hamlet should just humiliate claudius instead of seeking his revenge with murder. claudius took his fathers life and humiliating him in front of a crowd would do no justie. the punishment would not match the crime. also thats not what his father wants him to do. the ghost wanted him to kill claudius and thats what hamlet should do

mattw said...

kyle- in the end yes. I think that when the time comes he will overcome his inaction and kill claudius. But, i think that this will only occur when it is obvious that hamlet truly has nothing to lose, whether he be dying or claudius is exposed as the murderer that he is. Something will have to happen to spur him out of inaction, merely saying it will not make a difference.

iains said...

Class- What have Hamlet's actions so far shown about his ability to rule? Do you think he would have been a better king than Claudius?

StevenD said...

Inner Circle - I really don't think that Hamlet was trying to cover up the murder, more than just place it somewhere so obvious yet hidden, that Claudius would just get upset and angry. So in a way he did it to toy and play with Claudius' mind, as Hamlet had throughout the beginning of the play.

courtneyw said...

Kyle- I think Hamlet will eventually overcome his flaw because he has the perseverance to do anything. It will probably will happen when there is a time to do it. He waits for the perfect time (ex: claudius in confessional-not killing him but then in the room he tried to kill him but wrong person)

ryanb said...

Class- What would you have done if you were Hamlet? Would you try to avenge your father even if it means murder, or would you just accept the injustice of your uncle?

ryan f said...

Rebecca-- I don't think think that, even though his intentions were good, his actions will be justified. I mean, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Hamlets actions, for me, cannot be justified or taken back. As much as it seems the reader would like to see Hamlet get out of this situation, much of this play has been based on revenge, or cause and effect. Not only do I think that Hamlets actions will not be justified, but i think Hamlet being sent to England is not a surprise.

jaket said...

Rebecca R- I think Hamlets murder is kind of justified, For a better portion of the play Hamlet acts crazy and I think he gets so caught up in being this crazy, revengful person that he can't control himself anymore.

StevenD said...

Iain - I think by know we have all seen that Hamlet would rule with his heart and emotions more than the good of the kingdom. So to answer your question, no he would not be a better king than Claudius.

mattw said...

dan- do you think that hamlet actually saw the ghost or that it was just a figment of his imagination? It's entirely possible that from the beginning of the play that hamlet has been crazy and been halucinating about the ghost. Unlikely, maybe, but possible. So that makes me wonder, would hamlet murdering claudius be really a good thing if he was doing it to ut his "fathers ghost" to rest when the thing never existed? Just a thought.

DanielC said...

ian- i think that hamlet would have been a good king because he has shown that he is a smart and intelligent person. also he seems to know what is going on in other peoples heads and what they are thinking. sure he may have been a little emoitional for a ruler in the beginning but he has matured a lot and can show qualities of a good king

iains said...

Ryan B - I would have avenged the death of my father, although I probably would have been a little more careful, so as not to kill someone I thought was the killer.

Soo.K said...

Leigh - It is obvious that Shakespeare viewed women as weak. But it was the Elizabethan period. Queen Elizabeth I even viewed women as weak. I guess during that time, women relied on men a lot, and didn't have much power. I don't think it is Gertrude's fault for relying on men. In Shakespeare's plays, men control the world of women. Men have always controlled Gertrude. Even though she is queen, she is so easily controlled by Claudius, Hamlet, and even Polonius. She listens to everything they say and she obeys. And it also comes off as if Gertrude doesn't mind being controlled at all.

courtneyw said...

Class- Is murder justified when someone is "crazy" Or "Can't control themselves"?

emilyl said...

Rebecca- The end is hardly ever justified by the means. That saying/philosophy was created to make people look less evil as they killed off people and things to create "something better", which hardly ever was successful. Hamlet has ostricized everyone he ever cared about so that he could reach the "light" of his father's revenge. When it's over, I wonder if he will find if it was worth it. I don't think he realizes all of these horrible things that have been happening around him.

ryanb said...

Iain- While maybe not the most just, I think that Hamlet would actually make a great ruler. He has shown that he can play the power game, decieve, trick, and conspire against others. Hamlet also has proven that he knows when others are lying to him and trying to play games with him, because he recognized that his two friends were lying to him.

michaelm said...

ian- Hamlet's actions haven't shown a great ability to rule because he is being immature by acting crazy to get attention. this doesn't mean Hamlet wouldn't be a better King though. I do think Hamlet would be better because Claudius gained rule because of his selfishness of killing his brother. Hamlet earned Kingship and if he was King he wouldn't be acting like he is now and I assume he would be normal and a good King.

StevenD said...

Allie - I agree... Hamlet is a little "spazy..."

Leigh J said...

Kyle- I think that Hamlet is starting to overcome his flaw. It seems to me that during his soliloques you can see what little bit of sanity he has left. What he says in that soliloque makes a lot of sense if you are thinking philosophically. Perhaps one of the biggeset problems for Hamlet is that fact that he thinks philosophically in a world were everyone else thinks too literally. I hope that he will realize his flaws and be able to overcome his madness to end happily.

mattw said...

ryan- i think, if i had done all the things that hamlet had done, i would have gone through with killing claudius. After all that he's done to prepare for this, there's no reason for him to not go and avenge his fathers death by killing claudius.

jaket said...

Ryan B- If I was Hamlet I would find a way to my fathers death in a better way there are worse ways to revenge my fathers death, because if you murder your uncle to revenge your fathers death your just as bad as your uncle.

Kyle B. said...

Class-Near the end of the Act, I noticed something that I had not necessarily expected in this story. I saw a severe corruption of religion. Claudius and Laertes are conspiring how and where to kill Hamlet when Laertes has the brilliant idea to kill Hamlet in a church (the sidenote says that refugees of the law could not be captured if they took refuge in a church). Do you think that this is the correct solution to the problem? Do you think that Laertes deserves to be absolved of the murder that he plans to commit, even if it is "just"?

emilyl said...

Ryan- if I were Hamlet, I would not have tried to kill off my uncle, i would try to reveal him for the rotten apple he really is. Just killing him wouldn't be good enough. I would want everyone to know that I was right and justified for mourning and being angry at everyone. Hamlet, however, is so blinded by one desire that he has pushed other important ones out of his mind.

mattw said...

jake- i agree. he could only kill claudius and be justified if he could first prove to everyone that claudius was guilty. Otherwise he's just another murderer.

Soo.K said...

Iain - Hamlet's actions show that Hamlet would not make a very good king. He is controlled by his emotions and too rash to become king. While Claudius is calm and collected, Hamlet acts without thinking. He has no leadership qualities. Although Claudius killed the Old Hamlet, he showed good leadership by taking over successfully when Denmark had no leader and was in turmoil. Claudius deals with the war much better as well.

Leigh J said...

Class- how do you think Claudius will react to Hamlet's story about the pirates taking over the ship. Obviously he is coming home but what do you think made him realize that he isn't safe if he continues on his journey? Do you believe the story of the pirates?

rebeccar said...

Daniel – that is a good point. Hamlet’s whole purpose is to seek revenge my murdering Claudius. An arm for an arm, an eye for an eye, right? (Or however that saying goes)

Class – If Hamlet tries to turn the people of Denmark against Claudius for his crime and drive him mad with his sins, is he going too far? His father JUST asked him to murder Claudius… Can he cross a line, making him evil as well?

StevenD said...

Courtney - I think that that is a question still asked today. Just because someonr is insane or crazy, does that make it right. I think that if someone is a little cuckoo then that doesn't give them the right to murder anyone. Whether or not it is justified or not, all someone has to do is declare they are insane and they usually get away, not scott free, but do.

mattw said...

-leigh- i do believe the story of the pirates, purely because i think it's about time we read a story that had something to do with pirates.

samt said...

Emily L - I never really thought about that, but I think it would be really possible that she fell in and wasn't conciously aware that she was dying. At the same time though, one must think that she killed herself as a result of being crazy. Her father's death obviously threw her off the loop and she lost control of being able to act and think as a normal human being, so I think her death was a result of her depression and madness.

ryan f said...

ryanb-- If I was Hamlet, I honestly don't know what I would have done. Hamlet had been put in such a horrible position. Not only was his father murdered, but the incestuous acts of his mother and Claudius definitely didn't help the situation. I think that Hamlet's vengeance of his father's death should not come as a surprise. If that happened to me, I know that I would want to do something. But at the same time, Hamlets actions seem as though they can't be justified because murder is so wrong. I think that no one can make a fair assessment of what they would do because his situation is so complex and intense.

Soo.K said...

Courtney - I don't think murder is justfied just because they are crazy. If it was, then everyone would plead insanity. But it seems to me that one murder creates another murder, then another. Old Hamlet murder Fortinbras' father, then that led to the murder of Old Hamlet, then murder of Polonius, and etc. If everyone wants to get revenge, wouldn't everyone eventually kill each other??

emilyl said...

Kyle- I see many similarities now between Laertes and Hamlet. Now Laertes is so blinded that he would kill Hamlet in the most sinful way because he is so angry. This factor is what I think makes this all so tragic because if all these angry people would just slow down for a second, they could come up with better and smarter plans, instead of just running around with a sword and their eyes closed.

Kyle B. said...

Rebecca-I think that Hamlet has already gone against what the ghost had laid out for him to do. Hamlet has confronted Gertrude for what she has done even though the ghost wished for her to remain safe till her judgement. Hamlet does not give heed to the desires of others and therefore I think that he will try ever so hard to bring down Claudius with whatever method he may find fit.

StevenD said...

Leigh and Weems - Pirates do rule... but I don't think that the story is true. We have already seen that Hamlet has no problem lying or just tricking everyone, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

mattw said...

soo- no, cause eventually there will only be one person left and they can't murder anyone. but seriously, i don't think so. Eventually people would realise that there is no justification in all the killing that's going on, and that will put an end to it.

iains said...

Steven - YEAH PIRATES!

courtneyw said...

KyleB- I did not notice that about the religion but yet again I don't think murder is just for any reason (even for revenge). I don't think Laretes should murder Hamlet in a church if that is his plan (Even though I don't think murder is just)

Class- Isn't that religion thing what kept Hamlet from killing Claudius when he had the chance? But sadly after he accidentally killed polonius in the room thinking it was claudius.

(Sorry... If I am not making sense)

jaket said...

Courtney W- I do think if someone is crazy they are semi-justified because they may not fully know right from wrong. Should we punish them if they don't know the full consequences or find a better way to teach them?

ryanb said...

Class- Do you think that the story Hamlet, where murder is common among the Royalty, and justifies other murders, accurately represents Shakespear's time period? If so, is now-a-days different?

samt said...

Kyle B - No, I don't believe that Laertes would ever be justified in revenging his father's death, especially if he wants it to take place in a church. I think a huge thing that we are beginning to see is the downfall of all of the characters and how they are becoming desperate for protection and safety. Along with this, we have three characters in the story seeking revenge for their fathers' deaths, which doesn't create a safe climate for anybody.

rebeccar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mattw said...

everyone-can we just talk about pirates? Not really though Ms. Smith, i love hamlet too much to want to talk about pirates...

Soo.K said...

Matt - Well, like Emily said before, people are so blinded by revenge that they might not realize that there is no justification. Maybe one person will see that, and they will be one person left, but I think that Hamlet and Laertes will eventually die because of their blindness.

StevenD said...

Class - I was unsure about Hamlet's reaction about Ophelia's death. What do you think his reaction was?

courtneyw said...

Soo and Steven- Thanks... just making sure I wasn't alone in my view.

michaelm said...

Inner Circle- Now that Laertes is angered of his fathers death, I just think that this Laertes is another conflict standing in the way of Hamlet's plan to get Claudius. Laertes is going to try and kill Hamlet but I think Hamlet will either take care of Claudius first, or defeat Laertes before Laertes can get to Hamlet.

iains said...

Ryan - It is not very different in modern times. There are still government officials ordering assassinations on potentially dangerous opponents, so the idea is still the same, if not the methods.

emilyl said...

I think Claudius will still be suspicious of Hamlet, and that is why he still plans to do away with him when he returns. Claudius is probably very nervous about the sudden change in Hamlet, since he has already been so crazy lately anyways...
class- at this point, is Hamlet mad or pretending?

iains said...

Emily L - I think Hamlet is so used to appearing crazy that those acts have actually becom a part of his personality.

ryanb said...

Class- Who do you think is holding the reigns over who in this story? Who's really in power right now?

mattw said...

michael- i think that hamlet doesn't kill laertes on purpose, but it just seems to be his luck that he will accidently kill another person that is not associated with the death of his father and that he will also eventually kill claudius after killing laertes.

samt said...

Matt W - I doubt that Gertrude is worried about her family line because she is conforming to Claudius. Gertrude is a very good example of how Shakespeare displays women, which is weak and feeble. Claudius is the one who Gertrude is holding on to for protection and safety and she goes with what he goes. Sadly, it doesn't even seem like Gertrude is showing any sympathy for her only son, which a mother should.

Soo.K said...

Courtney - You're welcome. :)

ryan f said...

Ryan B. – I personally do think that Shakespeare accurately represents the Elizabethan time period in Hamlet. In the Middle Ages, torture chamber and brutal means of death were not uncommon. The value of life and/or basic morals (compared to today) were not near as important or emphasized as today.

rebeccar said...

Courtney – I love that question because, just as Steven said, it is still a prominent issue today. I do not think it is justified if someone commits a murder even though it was not technically their fault because of mental instability because the truth is, they are still responsible for what they do. If someone is messed up enough in the head to murder someone when it is out of their control, they should be on some sort of medicine or be locked up in a hospital somewhere. Even though it is not their fault they are crazy, they still have to pay for it and be responsible. Why should someone else (the victim) have to pay for their lack of self awareness?

StevenD said...

emily - Pretending! Plain and simple. He has lied, tricked, exagerated, and just fooled everyone, we and noone else has a reason to trust his story.

Soo.K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
courtneyw said...

Steven- I don't know if I am completely wrong but I don't think we have seen his reaction. I think if there was a reaction it was probably a mix of confusion... because Hamlet has a weird way of dealing with things after his father's death.

Kyle B. said...

Thank you Sam, I am glad for your input. I just thought of an excellent analogy for what this story is becoming. Sam brought up the idea that this whole situation has an unsafe climate. Could this story be likened to the coming of a great and terrible storm? The winds are picking up and control is being lost and there is no longer a large struggle for control of the greater situation. Everyone is branching off into their own seperate mental and interpersonal conflicts, thus creating a big mess of things.

mattw said...

ryan- good question. i think that, right now, hamlet has control over the situation. Hamlet has claudius guessing on where or not his story of the pirates (yay pirates) is true or just a ruse to get back into the country.

StevenD said...

Courney - I am wondering whether or not he knows, because we have not seen his reaction. Do you?

Soo.K said...

Ryan B - I guess no one really has the reigns. All of them are so devious and against each other that no one seems to have an advantage over the other.

mattw said...

kyle- i'm inspired and awed by your artistically crafted and thought provoking analogy that relates this story to a terrible storm. I appaud and salute you.

michaelm said...

Emily- At this point I believe Hamlet has actually gone mad. No one is with him and since he has been acting, it has probably just stuck with him for good. He also killed Polonius and didn't really care. I think that would have made Hamlet realize that he took it too far, but he didn't realize that. Also, after taking part in murder should upset people and just that could make someone mad.

emilyl said...

That is an excellent analogy, Kyle. Another similar story to this is The Lion King. At the end of that story, things turn out well but I think we still have to get through some more chaos before that.
What stage of a hero is Hamlet at now?

ryan f said...

Class-- Other than selfishness, do you think there is another prominent issue that has helped caused the downfall of almost every character in the play?

iains said...

Kyle - As do I... As do I.

courtneyw said...

Steven- I really don't think he knows... the reaction is of a death is always a big thing when shak. writes. hamlet-father ophelia and laertes-father

Kyle B. said...

Matt-on that same track, could your great and awesome pirates possibly be woven into my great and awesome analogy of a storm?

samt said...

Class - Do you think Gertrude truly loves her son Hamlet? True Love, in my opinion, should be unconditional, unfailing, something that can never be broken. In my opinion, Gertrude seems like she probably wouldn't be too affected if Hamlet were to die because she hasn't done much for Hamlet to take care of him, to mourn with him, and to stand by with him through all of this. In knowing this, by the way she is "helping" Hamlet, how much do you think she loved her dead husband, Old Hamlet?

mattw said...

emily- looking at your analogy of the lion king, as it relates to hamlet, is Simba (Hamlet) justified in his killing of Scar(Claudius) who murdered his brother Mufasa (Old Hamlet)?

Soo.K said...

Emily! - I think that Hamlet is mad, but he doesn't know it. Hamlet might think that he is pretending, but it has really led him to insanity. Can Hamlet really be that great at acting so that he persuades everyone? He is too good at acting crazy.

iains said...

Ryan F - I'd say that the mischievious nature of everyone's actions is another deciding factor.

rebeccar said...

Hey class – Is Hamlet’s method of appearing seeming crazy still a helpful strategy for him, or is it being used against him now?

mattw said...

kyle- it's entirely possible, i like the way you think. We'll come up with an awesome analogy later.

Soo.K said...

Emily - The Lion King is a Disney movie. I get how you're connecting it but Disney movies have to have a happy ending. So the ending of Hamlet probably isn't as happy as your movie.

emilyl said...

Other issues that could have caused the downfall is suspicion and inability to trust, which is kind of caused by backstabbing. The lack of honor and integrity is another major cause of everybody falling apart. This is kind of like what Kyle said about the church being corrupted. Everyone is corrupted!

mattw said...
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iains said...

Matt W - So is The Lion King analogous to Hamlet?

michaelm said...

Rebecca- I think Hamlet being crazy is acting against him now because no one will believe him beccause they just think he is crazy

jaket said...

Sam T- I don't think Gertrude truely loves Hamlet because she shows no qualities of a mother to Hamlet, he's about to leave for college and she seems to be pushing him away and running toward Cladius.

Kyle B. said...

Matt-I think that Emily's referral to the Lion King could be our next BIG ONE. You know, the Circle of Life and all that. Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust. Everyone returns to what they came from.

courtneyw said...

Rebecca- I think Hamlet's being "crazy" is a strategy... in some sort of way. It is not being used against him. It is helping get away with the things he his doing.

ryan f said...

Sam T. -- I don't think Gertrude truly loves anyone. She seemed to move on after Old Hamlet's death, and, like you said, seems like she be just fine if Hamlet dies. In this story, I can't think of any example when Gertrude showed what could be argued as true love. Which bring up a good question.
Class-- Is there any example you can think of where Gertrude has shown true love? Does she really love anything?

mattw said...

Yay! Smith mentioned pirates! Yay Jack Sparrow! We really do need to read a book about pirates though...

iains said...

Kyle B - Maybe the great and awesome pirates get caught up in the great and awesome storm?

samt said...

Leigh - I think it is because Gertrude lacks in her love for her family. One has to question her motives for why she is queen. It looks to me like she only married Old Hamlet just to call herself queen and have the riches of being queen, but in no way did she do it for love. So we see with her, that she also lacks in love for her son because she is so self-centered towards pleasing herself that she only does what's best for her.

Leigh J said...

Ryan f-- I think that another prominent issue is that of religion and heaven vs. hell. Now that Hamlet has killed Polonius he is not going to go to heaven. I think this effects his thinking and will probably effect his actions later in life.

Also, we know that Claudius has already killed old Hamlet so he will not go to heaven. It might be easier for him to kill young Hamlet without the thought that it will keep him out of heaven.

Finally with Ophelia you can question whether her death was suicide because suicide is considered a sin and that would have kept her out of heaven. Would that effect her thoughts and actions about the suicide?

rebeccar said...

Sam – I really doubt that she truly loved either of them at all. If she loved Old Hamlet, she would’ve been heart broken for at least a little bit, and she would have definitely NOT have been able to start sleeping with his brother a couple weeks later, rebound or not, because that is just wrong. And as far as her son, she has not proven in any way to truly love him. I agree with your definition of unconditional love, and she has displayed none of that. This just further proves Shakespeare’s stereotype of women. They are mean and stupid.

Kyle B. said...

Ian-You reveal a very provocatice possibility. Maybe the pirates, if there truly are pirates, will contribute to the confusion that is this storm. Hmmmmm...

Soo.K said...

Rebecca - I think that Hamlet's insanity is being used by Claudius as a strategy. Claudius has used his insanity to get him away from Denmark. Also, he has used it to get his closest people away from him, like Gertrude, Rosencrantz, and Guildenstern.

StevenD said...

I love it! There is an analogy hurricaine sweeping this blog!

emilyl said...

Leigh, that is exactly the other reason I don't think Ophelia knew what was happening. I know everyone says the water was "cleansing", I don't think that drowning can absolve you of your sin of suicide, and back in the Middle Ages, people were extremely serious about this stuff.

mattw said...

Iain- i do think that the Lion King is analogous to Hamlet, the plot may differ, but the overall message is the same...don't make wildebeasts stampede. But not really, i do think that they really are suprisingly similar.

courtneyw said...

YO HO YO HO... A PIRATES LIFE FOR ME.

Class- (Not a question) I think this whole murder thing is a question we should bring up to the president or smith. We should ask them, "What should we do with the people who pled insanity when they murder someone?"

iains said...

Kyle B - Hmmm? (scratch chin here)

Kyle B. said...

Iain-could you elaborate on your thoughts?

rebeccar said...

Kyle B - Ms. Smith/your mom must be so proud.

iains said...

Steven - Your analogy hurricane is an analogy itself! Brilliant!

iains said...
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Soo.K said...

Courtney - Well, when you think about it, the people who plead insanity are going to be sent to a mental hospital anyway....

samt said...

Rebecca - Agreed, throughout this story, women are stereotyped as stupid, can't take care of themselves, needy, women. It's actually making me made how dumb and stupid Gertrude is being and how she is so unable to be a mother and be a astute women.

mattw said...

courney- yeah, pirates are awesome. And i agree, we should be wondering what we're sapossed to do with people who murder and are insane, cause they really can't be held responsible cause they don't know what they're doing.

courtneyw said...

Why does Shakespeare potray women as weak? Is there a signifigance?

Notice the women haven't killed anyone.

mattw said...

YAY PIRATES!

emilyl said...

Courtney- I agree that this is a problem because they might not be insane. This problem is just because we don't have the power to know the absolute truth. This will always be a problem, because when people who are innocent are executed, that raises a moral issue....