What was the point of chapter 11 or the main topic in it. I was really confused as to what they were talking about. I thought i might be trying to show the corruption that has occured within Dorian, but that no one else can see. Yes I agree it was useless and really boring!
I've got a question for everyone- In Chp.11, Wilde writes "Life was the first, and greatest, of the arts". This whole story has been about the meaning of the arts, and great arts have meaning. Could Wilde be saying that life, the greatest of the arts, can only be great if its meaningful?
Ya, I agree with Wheems haha. Throughout reading these chapters I noticed that one of the significant motifs, or something that is at least mentioned a lot are mirrors. Does this show that we never know who we are, we only know what we see?
Joe~ I think the point is to show that DOrian is really an ugly person and doesn't deserve to be covered with something beautiful. He wants to hide who he really is and what his true beliefs are.
Well he covered the portrait with the purple cloth that used to be used to cover dead people. He used this clothe to cover up a portrait of himself that ages as he stays young. Does he believe the old Dorian in the portrait to be dead?
Joe, I think that it represents the painting is which is what he really is, and by covering it with something that used to cover the dead, it shows that he is dead. Who he really is is dead, and who he is now is a creation of Lord Henry. Its Oscar Wilde's way of showing us that society conforms us, whether it be good or evil.
katheine-i think that you are right. When you look into a mirror you see only what is on the outside. We don't see the inner turmoil that could be possessing someone. We only see the outer beuty, not the inner.
Joe, I think that it represents the painting is which is what he really is, and by covering it with something that used to cover the dead, it shows that he is dead. Who he really is is dead, and who he is now is a creation of Lord Henry. Its Oscar Wilde's way of showing us that society conforms us, whether it be good or evil.
Alex- I think that Wilde is really in love with life and really appreciates everything that it has to offer. Hedonism and aestheticism weren't bad things in his mind and therefore shouldn't be thought of as such. In Chapter 4 or 5, Lord Henry says that life is the only thing worth studying and I think that Wilde is truly in love with the art that is life.
Matt- I think the reason why the chapter is so boring is because it is over a span of eighteen years or so. The chapter represents the change that is gradually occuring in Dorian. He begins to act different and undergoes an enormous behavioral change
Alex, I think that the quote you referred to is a big part of Wilde's belief. I think the answer to your question, however, is that life is only worhtwhile if it is meaningful to you. If you can find purpose in your own life and stop looking to others, then you have found success. Dorian Gray is ashamed of who he really is, and leads a secret life.
Joe- Like they were talking about in the center circle, he uses this satin cloth that was once used to cover coffins to cover his portrait?!?! Major symbolism. I think that this shows that his soul is dead or at least dying. Like the bodies that belong in the coffin, Dorian has lost his life........ at least in some form.
kyle- i agree. This whole story has been about what one person would do to get "the most out of life". Dorian sold his soul to remain eternally youthful without even a seond thought or regret just so that he could live his life to the fullest.
Katherine - I definately see the mirrors motif in the book. I think that it definately signifies the theme of beauty as such a materialistic thing in this book. the only thing that we see in mirrors is the outside image, the beauty or lack thereof. So mirrors don't reflect any intelligence or character of anybody, only what's on the outside, which is what Dorian and Lord Henry think is the only thing that matters in life.
Class-Why do you think that, even though he knows what he is doing, Dorian continues to swindle away his soul into a life that is driven purely by passion, desire, and sensuality?
jackie- I don't think he is dead in the portrait, but maybe he thinks so. Although he was innocent before the painting, the painting of him still captures everything he had inside that he was capable of. I think that is also why the painting seems to change to him, because he notices that it is him and he isn't as innocent or beautiful as the painting first showed.
Kyle- I agree with you, that Wilde loves life. I think that in the Picture of Dorian Gray he uses Dorian Gray to show how corrupt the world's vision on beauty is and the harm it can cause.
OK some good responses to that first question but here's another: Why has Wilde shifted from strong references of Greek Mythology to that of the Roman Emperors Nero and Caligula?
Alex to answer your question I do believe that Wilde is saying life can be great only if it is meaningful. Though the point i want to make is who is to say who's life is meaningfuk and whos is in fact not. It in a sense a matter of opinion that there is always goign to be two sides two. One could say that a man's life who has only witnessed tradegy is meaningful just not in they way one would want their life to hve meaning to.
kyle- dorians whole philosophy is based around getting the most out of life. He sees pleasure as getting the most out of life, so he consumes himself with the pursuit of it.
Jackie- I believe that Dorian thinks he isn't dead but instead he has lost the connection between he and his old self. It does show however, how society is willing to conform and how society doesn't have the ability to stop themselves from conforming. That is clearly represented by the character of Lord Henry and the influence he has had on Dorian.
Cecily - When you say that Dorian covers the portrait in order to cover his true beliefs, do you think that the old Dorian is the real him? or do you think that the new materialistic Dorian is the real Dorian Gray? and what do you think those beliefs are that he's covering up?
I think that others will see Dorian's shame, the art is a persons legacy.
He will leave behind the art, which is who he really is. The painting showed his shame and eventually someone will see it. Also toward the end of chapter twelve he is going to take Basil to see it.
I think the motif of mirrors is intresting because thinking about it i didn't really notice it until Dorian and Lord Henry met. I think Lord Henry has done this to Dorian, given him the obsession.
joe- i think that dorian hide the paintings because he was trying to ignore the consequences. i dont know if he is scared of the consequences but it shows that he doesnt want to think of them. again it shows that he has no responsability for his acitons
Kyle B - I don't think he can stop. He's just like a smoker or an alcoholic: he knows that what he's doing is harming him, but he's addicted to how his actions make him feel.
Kyle- I think Dorian is still driven by passion and desire because he wants to live his life to the fullest. Even though it may be hurting him, Dorian knows his mistakes and just moves on by lust because he wants to move on and do what he desires at the time
Alex- I think that he switches from two cultures to validate his own opinions. By having proof in society of these things that have happened it makes his opinions more concrete. Also, I think he is trying to show off his knowledge to attempt to impress others.
Kyle- I think that Dorian continues to do this because he is so obsessed with his physical beauty, and his soul's beauty is something that he cannot understand. Also, his fascination with himself is like an addiction. After he started going down the wrong path, there was no going back.
Cecily- I agree with your comment that Dorian becomes ashamed of who he really is. I feel as though he covers the portrait because he can not bear to see the physical effects of the lifestyle he has lived. I don't think he sees himself as dead, but rather wishes for death to come to him
Matt, No I do not believe that Dorian will take Basil to see his painting. I think that Dorian is afraid of his portrait showing what his soul is saying, like he thinks it does, and doesn't want that to happen near Basil.
Matt I do think that he will take Basil to see the portrait, because he believes that Basil may have the ability to purify him again. I think that Dorian has begun to see that Lord Henry is corrupt and Basil is a better influence on him. He trusts Basil and will trust him with his great secret,because he wants someone to share his pain and understand his suffering.
Matt- I do believe Dorian will take Basil to see the painting. As of right now the painting is haunting him. His true personality is displayed in that and to come to means with that i believe he has to show thecreater of the painting(Basil) to set his soul free.
afoyle- The change of the greek mythology to Nero and Caliga shows a mental change, how he thinks. Nero and Caligula were known for their insanity, where as the greek mythology was more of a "magical" and overall not questioned idea. That is somewhat like Dorian being seen as righteous and always right to almost even insane.
jackie- I don't think he is dead in the painting either, he is really coming to life. He is like a child that has learned right and wrong, and he is continually choosing to do wrong. Before he couldn't see what was going on around him, now he is alive and an active part of his own life to an extent.
i think that he will take basil to see the painting because he feels that he can trust him. and that he has the qualities to help heal his corrupt attributes. usually with most people, they cant hide a secret in for a long time. they need to vent a little and i think he will vent to basil
kathrineg, But why do you think he chooses Nero and Caligula? Do you remember what these emperors are famous, or should I say infamous, for? (Think back to Western Civ.)
Alex- It is interesting to see how he has shifted timelines and the difference of people. Nero was a horrible emperor Roman culture and was one of the worst emperors of all time. He did everything for himself and was willing to sacrifice other people only for him to benefit. I think he is making a point, possibly comparing the change in Dorian to the Greeks and Romans.
Class-How much of himself did Wilde pour into this book? How much do you think he regrets his decisions in life? Or just, in general, how much do you think that Wilde reveals himself?
Class - pulling a question from the inner circle, what do you think of the different colors of the books? and why he would order 9 in all different colors? Do you see a motif of colors so far in the book?
class- do you think anyone else that is close to Dorian will share the same fate as Sybll (spelling?)? Do you think the people close to him are doomed to die or that she was aa isolated incident?
I think Chapter 11 shows his irony with his opinion of Art. After writing in the preface about all art being completely useless, he shows that its not. He almosts contradicts himself to get us to think what he is thinking and then proove us wrong.
Does the portrait still contain part of Basil or has DOrian Gray corrupted all of the artist out of it. What does this mean? What will Basil's reaction be to his beautiful painting that was the essence of purity and is now ugly
Samantha- interesting point. I also think that the mirror motif is linked to Lord Henry. When you look in mirrors, you can only see whats on the surface. The mirror may show beauty, but what it hides is the ugliness on the inside, which Lord Henry if full of and has now transfered on to Dorain. The mirror is important to them because it only shows this one artificial side of Henry and Dorian and they hide behind it.
ryan- I think Dorian will be torn between truth and lies. Basil will be the truth and Lord Henry will be the lies. Basil encourages Dorian to be himself, Basil thrives off of Dorian's personality. If Dorian's true personality fails then so does Basil. Lord Henry on the other hand is leading a fake life. Leading him down the wrong path and leading him away from himself. This is going to rip the three friends apart.
Weems, I think that Dorian will show Basil the portrait because he his hoping to change his ways and he can see Basil as a good person who could help turn his life around. Also, he will surly wonder what gave the portrait the power to age for him and since Basil was the artist, he would know better than any other person.
Ryan B- The story may end similar to the tragic plays of Shakespeare. Wilde has provided hints of the influence of Shakespeare throughout the novel so far. It won't suprise me a single bit if Dorian experiences a total downfall and ends up living a very dissatisfying life.
Cecily- who is to say Basil wont believe the picture has aged very well and feels it is still beautiful. For now it displays a beautiful tragedy instead of purity.
i agree with katherine that Dorian is completely contradicting himself about the comments of useless art. the picture shows what he is doing to his sole. the art means something to since he has hide it. yet he makes comments that all art is useless
ryanb- I think the stroy might end with Dorian eventually loathing the sight of the painting becuase it becomes so repulsive to him that he hides it from himself, yet eventually he becomes so curious as to what his face in the portrate becomes that it drives him insane further from either constantly thinking about it or trying to find it.
cecily- i think that sybll killed herself. i don't honestly think that dorian had anything to do with it cause that was at the beginning of his transformation to being evil. He wasn't capeable of killing anyone at that time.
matt- that is intresting that everyone around him could be doomed. I think you may be right that others close to Dorian will get hurt in some way. Maybe Dorian will end up being homosexual and then hurting Basil or Henry as he did with Sibyl.
Alex- Nero was one of the emperors who ordered the building of theatres and athletic games, which promoted the great. However, he himself, killed so many people and he himself seemed to have two sides much like Dorian.
Caligula also was popular with the Roman public but was known to have alleged cruelty. Also, like Dorian. The two emperors could represent Harry and Dorian and the way they seem and how they really are.
Weems- In chapter eleven, I think, Basil mentions that all of Dorian's previous friendships have ended in disaster. People have died, lost their jobs, and lost social standing. Dorian's is now the one with the influence and I think he will continue to have this damaging effect on others to come.
Ryan- I don't think this story can end in anything but the death of Dorian and his realization and retribution for all of his earthly sins. In "The Bicentennial Man", a robot searches to experience life as humans do and chooses consciously to exhibit the same behavior as humans. He wishes to experience everything to its fullest, rather than feeling with tin fingers. But he, like I think Dorian will realize, discovers that life just for living is not everything. He falls in love and then chooses to die with her after he realizes that life would not be worth living. Dorian isn't as amiable as Robin Williams, but I do think that they will end up finding the same fate. A realization of the significance of life and thus the finality and fulfillment of death.
kyle - I see that regret is a big theme in the book, because of Dorian. he basically dropped every part of who he was when he met Lord Henry, and became this new person obsessed with his own youth and beauty. Through these last few chapters when we see that he can't stand looking at the portrait of his old self the reader gets a feeling of regret from Dorian. So I think that Wilde probably had a lot of regret for his old decisions in his life, and we see a lot of that in this story.
Cecily Johnson- I believe that Sybil killed herself but purely out of saddness of how Dorian treated her. I don't think Dorian felt too bad about her death and because he felt no emotion that was the beginning of his cruelty. Do you think this is where he begins to lose his soul.
Cecily- at first I thought Sybil killed herself but then after reading that Dorian forgot what he did the night of her death, I became suspicious. I now think Dorian killed Sybil or he hired someone. Either way, Dorian had a hand in her death.
Cecily- I think Basil and Dorian are two in one. It does show Basil, what Basil is like on the inside. The picture represents what Dorian is like on the outside, and what Basil is like on the inside. When Dorian goes down so does Basil. The uglyness of the current painting shows how Dorian has failed, but also how Basil has failed. He has let this happen and did not rejoice about the engagement. He is doing just as much as Lord Henry, he is not protecting Dorian's soul.
Ok, here's where I get to be a nerd: This is the plot of Star Wars: Episode III. Anakin was not convinced he killed Padme until he was told by Sidious. Even then, he didn't believe him. And, of course, there is still Basil as Obi-Wan who sees the "purity" in Dorian.
Dustin I think that Basil will hate the picture now because the reason he was so infatuated with it in the first place was because it was pure. Dorian is a jerk now and is completely corrupt. Why would Basil see beauty in that?
ryan- i think dorain is a symbol for most people. Although their outer beauty may be great, they have no morals and degrade their souls. Dorian can just see what his actions are doing to him while, most people, have no way of witnessing this until it's too late to change.
matt- i dont think that dorian will end up killing basil. all his other friendships have ended tragicly and his relationship with basil seems to be different. i think that basil will help purify Dorian. dorian seems like he has the right cattributes to do so.
Dustin- This whole story has been a power struggle between Basil and Henry for Dorian. Basil is realizing he is losing im, and was prepared to do anything to make sure he had him.
Ryan- I think that Dorain could be used to symbolize the internal struggle between Wilde or maybe even people in general. In order to be a "good" person we all have to fight selfish urges and such.....
Joesph I think that Dorian loses his soul the night he can't see beauty in Sybil anymore. He is so mean to her and doesn't treat her right. What a jerk!
Cecily can't love and infatuation go hand in hand. To respond to your second comment if Basil will Hate the Picture now which reflects who Dorian is why Is Basil Still hanging around Dorian?
daniel- i dont think that dorian will change. Basil won't be able to handle what dorian has become and won't be able to help him. And i don't really see dorian feeling badly for anything that he has done.He has no intrinsic motivation at all.
Matt- I have to agree that it is possible that Dorian could kill Basil, especially now that he is hardly the person he used to be, however, nothing seems to indicate such a thing so far in the story.
Ryan- I believe that Wilde is wishing to impart his wisdom upon the world. I don't think that he is necessarily representing that particular time period, simply because of how closed off it is. I think that Wilde presents Dorian as such a polarizing ideal so as to impress upon others the importance of seeing everything for as it is. He presents Dorian to show us what we are missing; not necessarily the whole eternal youth thing, but the fact that being closed off from the world would do no good for anyone.
I think that everyone is trying to find homosexual tendencies in this book, when really they are all friends. Or miserable single men going through a mid life crisis.
Joe- I believe that Basil can still find beauty in Dorian because the Dorian we know now is not what Basil believes him to be. Basil sees the current Dorian as an extention of the influence of Lord Henry.
Joe- Maybe Basil still sees Dorian as a clean slate. He sees what Lord Henry can do to Dorian and maybe he has hope for the future. Basil may influence Dorian or Dorian may influence himself and take his independance.
Dustin I don't think that Dorian ever loved Sybil, he lusted after her characters. Its like creepy serial killers who make girls dress up before they rape them. Like that movie with the underwater garden of dead women that he has dressed up. Did anyone else ever see that. I agree with you that love and infatuation can go hand in hand but not in this case. I think that Basil is still hanging around Dorian because he still believes that DOrian has a sense of purity about him and doesnt want to lose his muse.
Cecily Single men going through a mid-life crisis. Isnt Dorian only 18? Another point to bring up is that you don't find it odd at all that woman are so non-existent in this novel and when thhey are talked about Harry always has a negative view on them. Im not looking for homosexual tendencies. they are right there in front of me
Alex- Nero was one of the emperors who ordered the building of theatres and athletic games, which promoted the great. However, he himself, killed so many people and he himself seemed to have two sides much like Dorian.
Caligula also was popular with the Roman public but was known to have alleged cruelty. Also, like Dorian. The two emperors could represent Harry and Dorian and the way they seem and how they really are.
Joe- I don't think that there was a specific moment when he lost his soul. Like i said earlier, Dorian has always been the same and even though he was innocent before the painting, he was capable of everything he will or has done and he has always been the same person.
Joe- I think that, through his total disregard for the scarring of the portrait, he has already forsaken his soul. There is always a way to work your way back into goodness, but he has completely absolved himself of any such responsibility to save himself.
jackie- Shall I go upon my Star Wars soap box again? Darth Vader, in a sense, was able to redeem himself and come over corruption, but it cost him his life.
Jackie I think someone can regain their innocence. People change. It could be compared to being a drug addict and going to rehab. If they come out sober they are innocent.
Samantha- Basil won't see Dorian as a slate anymore because he has been so influenced by both Lord Henry and his new book. The changes to his portrait reflect that he has changed from the perfect man he once was to the now deteriorating image he hides.
afoyle- COOL analogy. I agree that Anakin is very much like Dorian. He starts out as sort of a blank slate, he is innocent and left open to be molded by others. Anakin starts to experience the "dark side" and is tempted. Like Lord Henry, Sidous I guess, sees the power within Anakin and uses him. Although, Anakin's original intentions are good, he is influenced by the power of the dark side. In the VERY end though, in star wars, we do see a good side come out in Darth Vader. Will we see this is Dorian?
Jackie- I don't think that someone can regain their innocence. It is something that, when lost, cannot be brought back so long as the memory of what happened persists.
Class- Just throwing this out there, maybe Dorian will be made pure again by the intervention of Basil coming back into his life. I think he will it rock bottom and will be sick and tired of the negative influence that Lord Henry has on his life and will want to be salvaged before there is no way possible to save Dorian.
joe- i don't think that dorian realy cares anymore. Hes still beautiful and he sees himself as better than everyone else. Why would he can to salvage anything when he can be beautiful forever?
i think that basil is so admired of dorian and sees some type of beauty in him. i think that it could possibly help pure him. or it could go the opposite way and just make the corruptivness worse.
Dustin Harry and Basil are both older than Dorian, and they might be homosexuals but its not like they are actively describing their sex lives so you can't prove that
Jackie - No, I don't think that you can gain back your innocence, but rather experience and maturity. I see innocence as not being aware of reality. It's more like the beginning stage of life, and in order for us to gain experience and maturity we must lose that innocence.
I dont think that one can regain their innocence, because the negative marks on society are always remembered. Its the past that creates the future, and its not something that you can escape.
Joe - I saw Dorian lose his soul when he met Lord Henry. His whole character seemed to change when he first got to talking to Lord Henry and Wilde wrote "Why had it been left for a stranger to reveal him to himself?"(Wilde, 23). It was Lord Henry who made Dorian Gray the new materialistic, hedonistic person that he stayed for so long. He never was the innocent youth that he so longed for later in his life.
139 comments:
so...anyone else think that ch 11 was useless and boring?
Hello class- in ch. 10, why does Dorian cover his painting, that is supposed to be pretty, with something so ugly? What is the signicance?
Well, like smith said, why do you think that it was so boring?
What was the point of chapter 11 or the main topic in it. I was really confused as to what they were talking about. I thought i might be trying to show the corruption that has occured within Dorian, but that no one else can see. Yes I agree it was useless and really boring!
I've got a question for everyone-
In Chp.11, Wilde writes "Life was the first, and greatest, of the arts". This whole story has been about the meaning of the arts, and great arts have meaning. Could Wilde be saying that life, the greatest of the arts, can only be great if its meaningful?
Ya, I agree with Wheems haha. Throughout reading these chapters I noticed that one of the significant motifs, or something that is at least mentioned a lot are mirrors. Does this show that we never know who we are, we only know what we see?
Maybe corruption is confusing to those looking in, but means everything to whom is undertaking it.
Joe~
I think the point is to show that DOrian is really an ugly person and doesn't deserve to be covered with something beautiful. He wants to hide who he really is and what his true beliefs are.
Well he covered the portrait with the purple cloth that used to be used to cover dead people. He used this clothe to cover up a portrait of himself that ages as he stays young. Does he believe the old Dorian in the portrait to be dead?
Joe, I think that it represents the painting is which is what he really is, and by covering it with something that used to cover the dead, it shows that he is dead. Who he really is is dead, and who he is now is a creation of Lord Henry. Its Oscar Wilde's way of showing us that society conforms us, whether it be good or evil.
katheine-i think that you are right. When you look into a mirror you see only what is on the outside. We don't see the inner turmoil that could be possessing someone. We only see the outer beuty, not the inner.
Joe, I think that it represents the painting is which is what he really is, and by covering it with something that used to cover the dead, it shows that he is dead. Who he really is is dead, and who he is now is a creation of Lord Henry. Its Oscar Wilde's way of showing us that society conforms us, whether it be good or evil.
Alex- I think that Wilde is really in love with life and really appreciates everything that it has to offer. Hedonism and aestheticism weren't bad things in his mind and therefore shouldn't be thought of as such. In Chapter 4 or 5, Lord Henry says that life is the only thing worth studying and I think that Wilde is truly in love with the art that is life.
Matt- I think the reason why the chapter is so boring is because it is over a span of eighteen years or so. The chapter represents the change that is gradually occuring in Dorian. He begins to act different and undergoes an enormous behavioral change
Alex, I think that the quote you referred to is a big part of Wilde's belief. I think the answer to your question, however, is that life is only worhtwhile if it is meaningful to you. If you can find purpose in your own life and stop looking to others, then you have found success. Dorian Gray is ashamed of who he really is, and leads a secret life.
Joe- Like they were talking about in the center circle, he uses this satin cloth that was once used to cover coffins to cover his portrait?!?! Major symbolism. I think that this shows that his soul is dead or at least dying. Like the bodies that belong in the coffin, Dorian has lost his life........ at least in some form.
kyle- i agree. This whole story has been about what one person would do to get "the most out of life". Dorian sold his soul to remain eternally youthful without even a seond thought or regret just so that he could live his life to the fullest.
Katherine - I definately see the mirrors motif in the book. I think that it definately signifies the theme of beauty as such a materialistic thing in this book. the only thing that we see in mirrors is the outside image, the beauty or lack thereof. So mirrors don't reflect any intelligence or character of anybody, only what's on the outside, which is what Dorian and Lord Henry think is the only thing that matters in life.
Class-Why do you think that, even though he knows what he is doing, Dorian continues to swindle away his soul into a life that is driven purely by passion, desire, and sensuality?
class- do you think dorian will take basil to see the painting? or not so much?
jackie- I don't think he is dead in the portrait, but maybe he thinks so. Although he was innocent before the painting, the painting of him still captures everything he had inside that he was capable of. I think that is also why the painting seems to change to him, because he notices that it is him and he isn't as innocent or beautiful as the painting first showed.
Kyle-
I agree with you, that Wilde loves life. I think that in the Picture of Dorian Gray he uses Dorian Gray to show how corrupt the world's vision on beauty is and the harm it can cause.
OK some good responses to that first question but here's another:
Why has Wilde shifted from strong references of Greek Mythology to that of the Roman Emperors Nero and Caligula?
Alex to answer your question I do believe that Wilde is saying life can be great only if it is meaningful. Though the point i want to make is who is to say who's life is meaningfuk and whos is in fact not. It in a sense a matter of opinion that there is always goign to be two sides two. One could say that a man's life who has only witnessed tradegy is meaningful just not in they way one would want their life to hve meaning to.
kyle- dorians whole philosophy is based around getting the most out of life. He sees pleasure as getting the most out of life, so he consumes himself with the pursuit of it.
Jackie- I believe that Dorian thinks he isn't dead but instead he has lost the connection between he and his old self. It does show however, how society is willing to conform and how society doesn't have the ability to stop themselves from conforming. That is clearly represented by the character of Lord Henry and the influence he has had on Dorian.
Cecily - When you say that Dorian covers the portrait in order to cover his true beliefs, do you think that the old Dorian is the real him? or do you think that the new materialistic Dorian is the real Dorian Gray? and what do you think those beliefs are that he's covering up?
I think that others will see Dorian's shame, the art is a persons legacy.
He will leave behind the art, which is who he really is. The painting showed his shame and eventually someone will see it. Also toward the end of chapter twelve he is going to take Basil to see it.
I think the motif of mirrors is intresting because thinking about it i didn't really notice it until Dorian and Lord Henry met. I think Lord Henry has done this to Dorian, given him the obsession.
joe- i think that dorian hide the paintings because he was trying to ignore the consequences. i dont know if he is scared of the consequences but it shows that he doesnt want to think of them. again it shows that he has no responsability for his acitons
Kyle B - I don't think he can stop. He's just like a smoker or an alcoholic: he knows that what he's doing is harming him, but he's addicted to how his actions make him feel.
Kyle- I think Dorian is still driven by passion and desire because he wants to live his life to the fullest. Even though it may be hurting him, Dorian knows his mistakes and just moves on by lust because he wants to move on and do what he desires at the time
Alex- I think that he switches from two cultures to validate his own opinions. By having proof in society of these things that have happened it makes his opinions more concrete. Also, I think he is trying to show off his knowledge to attempt to impress others.
Kyle- I think that Dorian continues to do this because he is so obsessed with his physical beauty, and his soul's beauty is something that he cannot understand. Also, his fascination with himself is like an addiction. After he started going down the wrong path, there was no going back.
Cecily- I agree with your comment that Dorian becomes ashamed of who he really is. I feel as though he covers the portrait because he can not bear to see the physical effects of the lifestyle he has lived. I don't think he sees himself as dead, but rather wishes for death to come to him
Matt,
No I do not believe that Dorian will take Basil to see his painting. I think that Dorian is afraid of his portrait showing what his soul is saying, like he thinks it does, and doesn't want that to happen near Basil.
Matt
I do think that he will take Basil to see the portrait, because he believes that Basil may have the ability to purify him again. I think that Dorian has begun to see that Lord Henry is corrupt and Basil is a better influence on him. He trusts Basil and will trust him with his great secret,because he wants someone to share his pain and understand his suffering.
Matt- I do believe Dorian will take Basil to see the painting. As of right now the painting is haunting him. His true personality is displayed in that and to come to means with that i believe he has to show thecreater of the painting(Basil) to set his soul free.
Alex - I agree with Katherine. By giving examples from more than one culture, he validates his point.
Class - Why does Dorian buy 9 books?
afoyle- The change of the greek mythology to Nero and Caliga shows a mental change, how he thinks. Nero and Caligula were known for their insanity, where as the greek mythology was more of a "magical" and overall not questioned idea. That is somewhat like Dorian being seen as righteous and always right to almost even insane.
jackie- I don't think he is dead in the painting either, he is really coming to life. He is like a child that has learned right and wrong, and he is continually choosing to do wrong. Before he couldn't see what was going on around him, now he is alive and an active part of his own life to an extent.
Class- How do you think this story will end? What will end up happening to Dorian?
i think that he will take basil to see the painting because he feels that he can trust him. and that he has the qualities to help heal his corrupt attributes. usually with most people, they cant hide a secret in for a long time. they need to vent a little and i think he will vent to basil
kathrineg,
But why do you think he chooses Nero and Caligula? Do you remember what these emperors are famous, or should I say infamous, for? (Think back to Western Civ.)
Alex- It is interesting to see how he has shifted timelines and the difference of people. Nero was a horrible emperor Roman culture and was one of the worst emperors of all time. He did everything for himself and was willing to sacrifice other people only for him to benefit. I think he is making a point, possibly comparing the change in Dorian to the Greeks and Romans.
Class-How much of himself did Wilde pour into this book? How much do you think he regrets his decisions in life? Or just, in general, how much do you think that Wilde reveals himself?
Class - pulling a question from the inner circle, what do you think of the different colors of the books? and why he would order 9 in all different colors? Do you see a motif of colors so far in the book?
Class in chapter 9 did anyone esle get the vibe that Basil was going to confess his love for Dorian?
class- do you think anyone else that is close to Dorian will share the same fate as Sybll (spelling?)? Do you think the people close to him are doomed to die or that she was aa isolated incident?
Thank you, Kenny. Thats what I was getting at.
I think Chapter 11 shows his irony with his opinion of Art. After writing in the preface about all art being completely useless, he shows that its not. He almosts contradicts himself to get us to think what he is thinking and then proove us wrong.
Does the portrait still contain part of Basil or has DOrian Gray corrupted all of the artist out of it. What does this mean? What will Basil's reaction be to his beautiful painting that was the essence of purity and is now ugly
Thanks for stealing my question, Jackie.
dusty- yeah...i think that he was going to confess his love for dorian. and not the brotherly kinda love.
Dustin,
In response to your question, it did seem that way, but more in a desperate act to win him back.
Samantha- interesting point. I also think that the mirror motif is linked to Lord Henry. When you look in mirrors, you can only see whats on the surface. The mirror may show beauty, but what it hides is the ugliness on the inside, which Lord Henry if full of and has now transfered on to Dorain. The mirror is important to them because it only shows this one artificial side of Henry and Dorian and they hide behind it.
ryan-
I think Dorian will be torn between truth and lies. Basil will be the truth and Lord Henry will be the lies. Basil encourages Dorian to be himself, Basil thrives off of Dorian's personality. If Dorian's true personality fails then so does Basil. Lord Henry on the other hand is leading a fake life. Leading him down the wrong path and leading him away from himself. This is going to rip the three friends apart.
Weems, I think that Dorian will show Basil the portrait because he his hoping to change his ways and he can see Basil as a good person who could help turn his life around. Also, he will surly wonder what gave the portrait the power to age for him and since Basil was the artist, he would know better than any other person.
Matt
I was wondering that too. And who killed Sybil? was it Dorian is that where his cruelty began?
Ryan B- The story may end similar to the tragic plays of Shakespeare. Wilde has provided hints of the influence of Shakespeare throughout the novel so far. It won't suprise me a single bit if Dorian experiences a total downfall and ends up living a very dissatisfying life.
class-dorian is going to kill basil. i'm calling it right now.
Cecily- who is to say Basil wont believe the picture has aged very well and feels it is still beautiful. For now it displays a beautiful tragedy instead of purity.
i agree with katherine that Dorian is completely contradicting himself about the comments of useless art. the picture shows what he is doing to his sole. the art means something to since he has hide it. yet he makes comments that all art is useless
MattW - How do you know that? What from the story tells you this?
ryanb- I think the stroy might end with Dorian eventually loathing the sight of the painting becuase it becomes so repulsive to him that he hides it from himself, yet eventually he becomes so curious as to what his face in the portrate becomes that it drives him insane further from either constantly thinking about it or trying to find it.
cecily- i think that sybll killed herself. i don't honestly think that dorian had anything to do with it cause that was at the beginning of his transformation to being evil. He wasn't capeable of killing anyone at that time.
Matt,
You know what would be a real twist on the plot: If Basil killed Dorian.
matt- that is intresting that everyone around him could be doomed. I think you may be right that others close to Dorian will get hurt in some way. Maybe Dorian will end up being homosexual and then hurting Basil or Henry as he did with Sibyl.
Dustin
Why do you think they are in love. And are you referring to homosexual love (sexual relationship) or merely respect or infatuation with Dorian
Alex- Nero was one of the emperors who ordered the building of theatres and athletic games, which promoted the great. However, he himself, killed so many people and he himself seemed to have two sides much like Dorian.
Caligula also was popular with the Roman public but was known to have alleged cruelty. Also, like Dorian. The two emperors could represent Harry and Dorian and the way they seem and how they really are.
Afoyle - That would be intense!
Weems- In chapter eleven, I think, Basil mentions that all of Dorian's previous friendships have ended in disaster. People have died, lost their jobs, and lost social standing. Dorian's is now the one with the influence and I think he will continue to have this damaging effect on others to come.
iain- i don't know. im just throwing that out there. so if im right, i deserve props.
Ryan- I don't think this story can end in anything but the death of Dorian and his realization and retribution for all of his earthly sins. In "The Bicentennial Man", a robot searches to experience life as humans do and chooses consciously to exhibit the same behavior as humans. He wishes to experience everything to its fullest, rather than feeling with tin fingers. But he, like I think Dorian will realize, discovers that life just for living is not everything. He falls in love and then chooses to die with her after he realizes that life would not be worth living. Dorian isn't as amiable as Robin Williams, but I do think that they will end up finding the same fate. A realization of the significance of life and thus the finality and fulfillment of death.
kyle - I see that regret is a big theme in the book, because of Dorian. he basically dropped every part of who he was when he met Lord Henry, and became this new person obsessed with his own youth and beauty. Through these last few chapters when we see that he can't stand looking at the portrait of his old self the reader gets a feeling of regret from Dorian. So I think that Wilde probably had a lot of regret for his old decisions in his life, and we see a lot of that in this story.
Alex- Going off your response to my question could Basil be desperately trying to win him back, or to win him over? Does that makes sense
Class- What is Dorian symbolic of?
Cecily Johnson- I believe that Sybil killed herself but purely out of saddness of how Dorian treated her. I don't think Dorian felt too bad about her death and because he felt no emotion that was the beginning of his cruelty. Do you think this is where he begins to lose his soul.
Cecily- at first I thought Sybil killed herself but then after reading that Dorian forgot what he did the night of her death, I became suspicious. I now think Dorian killed Sybil or he hired someone. Either way, Dorian had a hand in her death.
Cecily-
I think Basil and Dorian are two in one. It does show Basil, what Basil is like on the inside. The picture represents what Dorian is like on the outside, and what Basil is like on the inside. When Dorian goes down so does Basil. The uglyness of the current painting shows how Dorian has failed, but also how Basil has failed. He has let this happen and did not rejoice about the engagement. He is doing just as much as Lord Henry, he is not protecting Dorian's soul.
Ok, here's where I get to be a nerd:
This is the plot of Star Wars: Episode III. Anakin was not convinced he killed Padme until he was told by Sidious. Even then, he didn't believe him.
And, of course, there is still Basil as Obi-Wan who sees the "purity" in Dorian.
Dustin
I think that Basil will hate the picture now because the reason he was so infatuated with it in the first place was because it was pure. Dorian is a jerk now and is completely corrupt. Why would Basil see beauty in that?
ryan- i think dorain is a symbol for most people. Although their outer beauty may be great, they have no morals and degrade their souls. Dorian can just see what his actions are doing to him while, most people, have no way of witnessing this until it's too late to change.
Afoyle - Wow. Nice connection.
matt- i dont think that dorian will end up killing basil. all his other friendships have ended tragicly and his relationship with basil seems to be different. i think that basil will help purify Dorian. dorian seems like he has the right cattributes to do so.
Dustin-
This whole story has been a power struggle between Basil and Henry for Dorian. Basil is realizing he is losing im, and was prepared to do anything to make sure he had him.
Ryan- I think that Dorain could be used to symbolize the internal struggle between Wilde or maybe even people in general. In order to be a "good" person we all have to fight selfish urges and such.....
Joe- Basil always saw beauty or maybe Basil is homosexual
Class- How can Basil still find beauty in Dorian, eventhough Dorian has no purity? What does Basil now see in Dorian?
Joesph
I think that Dorian loses his soul the night he can't see beauty in Sybil anymore. He is so mean to her and doesn't treat her right. What a jerk!
Cecily can't love and infatuation go hand in hand. To respond to your second comment if Basil will Hate the Picture now which reflects who Dorian is why Is Basil Still hanging around Dorian?
daniel- i dont think that dorian will change. Basil won't be able to handle what dorian has become and won't be able to help him. And i don't really see dorian feeling badly for anything that he has done.He has no intrinsic motivation at all.
Matt- I have to agree that it is possible that Dorian could kill Basil, especially now that he is hardly the person he used to be, however, nothing seems to indicate such a thing so far in the story.
Ryan- I believe that Wilde is wishing to impart his wisdom upon the world. I don't think that he is necessarily representing that particular time period, simply because of how closed off it is. I think that Wilde presents Dorian as such a polarizing ideal so as to impress upon others the importance of seeing everything for as it is. He presents Dorian to show us what we are missing; not necessarily the whole eternal youth thing, but the fact that being closed off from the world would do no good for anyone.
inner circle- im also gonna call that syblls brother will come back and confront dorian. just so everyone knows, im calling it.
joer,
I think that what Basil sees in Dorian is what he once saw. He sees him the day he was when he painted the portait.
I think that everyone is trying to find homosexual tendencies in this book, when really they are all friends. Or miserable single men going through a mid life crisis.
kyle- get in the inner circle!!!!
kyle- AAH! what michael said!
Cecily Johnson- I concur. Do you think he only loses part of his soul at that moment or his loses his whole soul at that exact time and place?
Joe- I believe that Basil can still find beauty in Dorian because the Dorian we know now is not what Basil believes him to be. Basil sees the current Dorian as an extention of the influence of Lord Henry.
Joe-
Maybe Basil still sees Dorian as a clean slate. He sees what Lord Henry can do to Dorian and maybe he has hope for the future. Basil may influence Dorian or Dorian may influence himself and take his independance.
Class- When do you think Dorian loses his soul? Is it at one specific moment or does he lose his soul slowly based on different experiences?
iain- im not going to college cause of my spelling, leave me alone. Its what spell check is for.
Daniel C- Do you think that Dorian can be made pure again?
Class - Can someone regain their innocence?
Dustin
I don't think that Dorian ever loved Sybil, he lusted after her characters. Its like creepy serial killers who make girls dress up before they rape them. Like that movie with the underwater garden of dead women that he has dressed up. Did anyone else ever see that. I agree with you that love and infatuation can go hand in hand but not in this case. I think that Basil is still hanging around Dorian because he still believes that DOrian has a sense of purity about him and doesnt want to lose his muse.
Cecily Single men going through a mid-life crisis. Isnt Dorian only 18? Another point to bring up is that you don't find it odd at all that woman are so non-existent in this novel and when thhey are talked about Harry always has a negative view on them. Im not looking for homosexual tendencies. they are right there in front of me
Alex- Nero was one of the emperors who ordered the building of theatres and athletic games, which promoted the great. However, he himself, killed so many people and he himself seemed to have two sides much like Dorian.
Caligula also was popular with the Roman public but was known to have alleged cruelty. Also, like Dorian. The two emperors could represent Harry and Dorian and the way they seem and how they really are.
jackie- innocence cannot be regained. Once its gone its gone. You can't undo what someone has said or done.
Joe- I don't think that there was a specific moment when he lost his soul. Like i said earlier, Dorian has always been the same and even though he was innocent before the painting, he was capable of everything he will or has done and he has always been the same person.
Joe- I think that, through his total disregard for the scarring of the portrait, he has already forsaken his soul. There is always a way to work your way back into goodness, but he has completely absolved himself of any such responsibility to save himself.
jackie-
Shall I go upon my Star Wars soap box again? Darth Vader, in a sense, was able to redeem himself and come over corruption, but it cost him his life.
Joe I think that he begins to lose his soul then, but he continues to lose it piece by piece with each corrupt act he commits
Jackie
I think someone can regain their innocence. People change. It could be compared to being a drug addict and going to rehab. If they come out sober they are innocent.
Samantha- Basil won't see Dorian as a slate anymore because he has been so influenced by both Lord Henry and his new book. The changes to his portrait reflect that he has changed from the perfect man he once was to the now deteriorating image he hides.
Nevermind dorian being 18 although him still being 38 is early to have a MID-life crisis
afoyle- COOL analogy. I agree that Anakin is very much like Dorian. He starts out as sort of a blank slate, he is innocent and left open to be molded by others. Anakin starts to experience the "dark side" and is tempted. Like Lord Henry, Sidous I guess, sees the power within Anakin and uses him. Although, Anakin's original intentions are good, he is influenced by the power of the dark side. In the VERY end though, in star wars, we do see a good side come out in Darth Vader. Will we see this is Dorian?
My god, i'm such a nerd.
Jackie- I don't think that someone can regain their innocence. It is something that, when lost, cannot be brought back so long as the memory of what happened persists.
Class- Just throwing this out there, maybe Dorian will be made pure again by the intervention of Basil coming back into his life. I think he will it rock bottom and will be sick and tired of the negative influence that Lord Henry has on his life and will want to be salvaged before there is no way possible to save Dorian.
dusty-...what?
joe- i don't think that dorian realy cares anymore. Hes still beautiful and he sees himself as better than everyone else. Why would he can to salvage anything when he can be beautiful forever?
i think that basil is so admired of dorian and sees some type of beauty in him. i think that it could possibly help pure him. or it could go the opposite way and just make the corruptivness worse.
Dusty - Yeah... what?
Dustin
Harry and Basil are both older than Dorian, and they might be homosexuals but its not like they are actively describing their sex lives so you can't prove that
Jackie - No, I don't think that you can gain back your innocence, but rather experience and maturity. I see innocence as not being aware of reality. It's more like the beginning stage of life, and in order for us to gain experience and maturity we must lose that innocence.
Poor Sam (Tidwell), all alone in his corner, nobody to talk to...
I dont think that one can regain their innocence, because the negative marks on society are always remembered. Its the past that creates the future, and its not something that you can escape.
yeah...poor tidwell. You should give him a hug kyle.
yay dorian
Now that Dorian is nearly 40, but still looks 18, do you think that he will become upset about the rumors going around about him?
Joe - I saw Dorian lose his soul when he met Lord Henry. His whole character seemed to change when he first got to talking to Lord Henry and Wilde wrote "Why had it been left for a stranger to reveal him to himself?"(Wilde, 23). It was Lord Henry who made Dorian Gray the new materialistic, hedonistic person that he stayed for so long. He never was the innocent youth that he so longed for later in his life.
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